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Embracing a Customer Experience Strategy That Drives Growth, with Michael Marcellin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

As CMO of Juniper Networks, Michael Marcellin is responsible for driving growth and ensuring their products expand successfully into new markets and verticals. In today's fast-paced world, is there an accelerated way to get customers to experience the value and ROI of your products?

Listen to this episode of The Intent Data Exchange to hear Michael’s customer-listening strategy for growth. Key takeaways include:

  • How to build a winning customer service and support team that reduces churn
  • Organizational changes that help deliver differentiated value to customers
  • Recommendations to guide product development to maximize opportunities

Welcome to the intent data exchange, a Bombara podcast. This is a show for sales, marketing, publishing and data professionals seeking the latest insights from the B two B marketing ecosystem. You're about to hear a conversation about solving customer problems, reinventing demand generation, leveraging intent data, executing account based everything and much more. Let's get into the show. Find the businesses who are ready to buy before your competitors do, connect and sell using the industry's most comprehensive and privacy compliant buyer intent data. To learn more, VISIT BAMBARA DOT com. Hey everybody, welcome back to the intent data exchange podcast. I'm your host, Mike Burton. I'm a CO founder at Bambara and some of you know we we try to get a lot of the leaders from the B two B sales and marketing space onto the show and we talked to them about their background and kind of what their journey was to get into their role and then, of course, you know what they think of the space today and where where they think it's going. Uh So, the show is, of course, brought to you by Bombara. We're an intent data company in the B two B space and we help companies understand who is already researching their products and services so they can put that information into their sales and marketing motions and get more meetings and close more deals and have better marketing metrics. Um. So thanks again for tuning in. Today our guest is Mike Marcel and he's the CMO at juniper networks. It was a really good chat with Mike. I I think you'll enjoy it. Um. One of the things I've noticed about a lot of our guests who get to these leadership positions is they have very diverse backgrounds by way of education or their previous roles, and I think you'll find that Mike's diverse background also leads to a diverse version of the CM role role at Juniper, which is really interesting. And then I get to learn a lot about juniper's business as well, which is pretty cool. So thanks again for tuning in and I hope you enjoyed the chat with Mike. Hey, Mike, thanks so much for joining the show. Appreciate you coming on. My pleasure good to talk to you. Yeah, no, it's been you know, our teams have worked together for a while and we're really excited when when you said that you'd be able to do it. Um. And as always for the folks listening, we we like to give them a little bit of an orientation on your day to day your role at juniper networks today. Kind of you know what, what's what's the biggest part of your job these days, and then we kind of go backwards a little bit more into your background. Yeah, well, happy to Um. Yeah, it's it's a pretty exciting time in our industry and and and at juniper. Um, I guess so. My my title is chief marketing officers, so that I think most listeners probably know what that entails in general. Um. I also actually responsible for learning and development for the company too, so kind of have that gruel role. Um. But ultimately what I'm focused on is driving growth for the company. You know, we're in a we're in a competitive industry, but we've been, we've been growing extremely well over the last few years and, you know, proud to say the marketing has had a good,...

...um part of that growth story. You know, helping to uncover new opportunities, go into new markets and really, Um, most notably, really expand the aperture that juniper is going after. Um, those that know us from way back might know that juniper started out really as the as the worldwide web was getting off the ground, you know, being infrastructure for big telecom operators and I S P s and more recently some of the big cloud companies, and not still a big part of our business, but extending to really most other verticals has been critical for us over the last few years. And anytime you're expanding new markets, marketing has a big role to play. And so that growth and expansion would you say? I'm sure it's a mix, but certainly it sounds like new new verticals right, and getting not just telecom, not just cloud providers. Um. Was it also, I'd imagine, as you move into these new verticals there's new product needs. So you also have to expand horizontally from like a product offering perspective. Absolutely, you know, you can't just say well, I'M gonna start attacking this new market and not have the right portfolio and the right approach to that market. And so yeah, certainly it's been a story of our products and solutions that we've made more turn key, Um, more AI driven, more automated. You know, it's one thing if you're dealing with a major telecom operator who's got a big I t staff, a big network staff, that's their business. Um, whereas if you turn to you know, someone in the retail industry, Um, not only does there I t staff not as big, but if they have a thousand stores, each of those stores probably has no I t staff. And so you've gotta have you've gotta be focused on simplicity, on automation and creating uh, an end user experience of running and using a network that is that is simple and, Um, intuitive. Sure, and maybe could share more about that, because I know we've been through that here and us our our smaller world of just pivoting from only serving the biggest companies in the world to also serving, you know, a mid market B two B go to market team and we learned the same thing and what we found is it's not so much in knowing the right answer right away, it's how fast you learn and how fast you know what a certain you can figure out what a certain market needs. So what was your experience there? Did you guys have a really good intuition, as you expanded into a new market, kind of what that market needed, or was it a matter of learning really fast and and you know stumbling, kind of stumbling in the beginning and figuring it out. Well, it's nothing, I mean, you know, I would say it's not as if we woke up two years ago and said, Oh, we want to go into new markets. We've been trying to get there. But I would say to your point earlier, you know, maybe early on as we were doing that, we were trying to you know, put a square peg into a round hole with taking our you know, existing portfolio that works great for, you know, the largest Um folks out there and try to say hey, you know, this is interesting, this should be interesting...

...to a medium sized enterprise and it just doesn't really work that way. So I think we maybe took some lumps a number of years ago, but but learned as we went um and now, you know, as we're expanding, I mean we've put in you know, voice of the customer programs and other listening posts, Um Marketing, driven by the way, which is also another exciting thing, that allows us to help give that feedback back into the company to guide product development, but also to guide go to market approach and how these customers and prospects want to be engaged with. That's cool. So marketing really becomes the mechanism for that learning fast, which it sounds like. I mean that's because it's just human nature to think you can take what you have and go generate revenue with it somewhere else. But it seems like as you guys have scaled into different verticals, you figured out how to learn fast, and marketing a piece of that. Yeah, yeah, we're a piece of it. And underpinning that are really two things that we've instilled. One is a heavily kind of data driven approach. So, you know, one of the first things I did taking over CMO years ago was to put in a team of data scientists because I knew that, you know, that's going to be the new battleground, is really understanding the data. I mean, when everything goes digital, you're kicking off so much data, but if you don't know how to harness it and make sense of it, it's worthless. And so that's that. That can become our competitive advantage if we do it right. So data, data driven, and then also, you know, really really embracing agile marketing approaches. Um, you know, the days of building a campaign for six or nine months and then running it for six or nine months and then figuring out eighteen months later whether you hit the mark. It just doesn't fly and the world is moving too quickly. Um. But it's an opportunity for us, as as we were discussing, to really be um that tip of the sphere for the company and going to new markets and listening to customers and and and in kind of adjusting our approach to maximize our opportunity. It's it's really cool. And and so they caught my attention that you also have learning and development. So say more about what that looks like at juniper and how did how did you end up with L and D? Yeah, it's Um. Well, so I'll start with how I ended up with it and they'll talk to you about what it is. Um. This is probably you know, maybe three or four years ago, where you know one of the big roles I play on the marketing side in a B two B company. It's about sales enablement. It's about making sure our salespeople understand our portfolio are are well equipped to represent that out to their customers. Um and, and part of that is how they learn about new solutions. And I'll just say it. I mean our training, our internal training back then was just broken, and so I raised my hand and said this is broken and no, by the way, it's kind of impacting my accountability to get our sellers equipped with the information that they need, it said. And so, you know, typical fast it's like, well, if you think it's broken, why don't you go fix it? Um. So that's how I got Um internal training. And then a couple of years later we saw that the...

...synergy between internal training and external training, meaning we do a lot of training and certification for our customers and prospects on our solutions. So that all came together and that's what our organization is now focused on. Both that, how do we get our customers, UM, more up to speed and onboarded and using our solutions effectively more quickly? And then internally, we've gone from just training our marketers and our sellers to actually now we have responsibility for training our engineers, training our customer support teams, Um. So really everything internally. Uh, there's still there's you know, hr still owns, you know some of them more Um, kind of general company wide training or compliance training, stuff like that, but anything related to products and solutions or technical skills for engineers and support. Our team does that and you mentioned in there that even the customer enablements of training the customer on the products and specific levels of Servi that you're providing. Your team is driving all that from a customer facing perspective. Yes, yeah, because you know, obviously you know. You know. Typically you might think of marketing is okay, I'm just trying to engage a prospect all the way through and once the sale is made I've done my job, and that is true to a point. But but increasingly, as we all know, you know, cross selling, up selling, building that relationship, making it a long term relationship even after that first initial sale, is equally, if not more, important, and so a big part of that. I mean the statistics are pretty staggering that. You know, if someone has a good onboarding experience, if someone feels like early on they're getting the value out of what they bought, they're going to be much more loyal, much more willing to make more purchases. And makes sense, and so that's a big part of that. Accountability is, you know, how do you how do you get people seamlessly adopting our products and feeling like, yeah, this is delivering the r o I that I was promised. Maki. Maybe, I don't say making the same realization right now would probably be a strong but just this light bulb that implementation is a large percentage of the battle. I won't put a number on it, but if you can, maybe, maybe. What you're saying is if you can really nail that, not only do they get value faster, have a great experience and a great feeling faster, but the downstream support becomes potentially more economical in that set up. So we're not trying to you're not spending people time undoing stuff, you're spending people time figuring out, you know, what else they could be doing. You're totally right. I mean, we work very closely with our customer service and Support Team because the better job we can do with getting people onboarded and understanding our products, the fewer calls or emails or chats they're going to get u with questions or confusion. That's great. So thanks for sharing all that and maybe take us back a little bit and help us understand how you got into this position, because I think you know it's been really interesting that it's the traditional CMO job, but it's kind of stretching into some of these other really interesting areas and, Um, I'm sure those other areas create a lot...

...of alignment internally where you guys probably have one way of talking about things, one point of view on things. And so how did your background help equip you to get into this version of being a CMO versus, one that might be a little bit more traditional? Yeah, well, I guess I'd say. Um, you know, I've always kind of valued having kind of breadth of perspective and and you know, my my journey hasn't been an exclusively like kind of a marketing journey as I've come up through my career. Um, I mean I have a systems engineering degree and Um, when I did that at the University of Virginia, that it's kind of a hybrid engineering and business degrees, is what their program was. And so, you know, I felt, like you know, I wanted to be in business. I didn't necessarily want to be a pure engineer by trade. No, no offense to my engineering friends. We've got a world class engineering team here at juniper Um. But but I did want the kind the depth of understanding and maybe technical capabilities that that brought. And so my first job out of school was was in management consulting with price waterhouse. Great. I'd advocate that to anybody has a great first job because within a few years you work on so many clients. So you get a broad perspective of business challenges, how you solve them. You know, you work, you start at one company and you you you're you have whatever knowledge that one company give you. Here you can kind of see a lot of different things in a very short amount of time. And that's their pitch too, by the way. Um. So I definitely thought that was good. But then, Um, you know, I got into product management and Product Marketing Um with uh TELECO in the telecom and Internet space. So if if those of you, those of your listeners who are of a certain age will remember M C I, the big telecom company, and I'll tell you they were a great challenger company. I mean they were the ones that broke up a t and t s monopoly. A T t used to be, you know, state subsidized monopoly and everyone in the US paid massively high prices for phone service and M C I broke that up. And so just like the original challenger Um, Great Marketing Company, Um, great innovative company, so a great place to spend early in my career to kind of get that aggression and that desire to really challenge the status quo and to win in the market. Um. And then there were a variety of mergers and acquisitions and eventually M C I got bought by verizon. So still in the telecom space in in in all of my roles I was in product management, some marketing roles, some data and pricing kind of market management roles. Um. So a lot of different roles within that, just kind of piecing together a broad perspective of the industry and you know how you win as a company. Um. And so all of that then brought me to juniper Um and so while I was in those roles, I was very much full...

...bused on let's call it medium to large enterprises globally. Like that was those are the markets I was selling to. So not not the consumer side of verizon or M C I, but the the B Two B side. So you know, that's what juniper's focused on. They're focused on B two B, but they're also focus. They focused on the telecom market, as we've discussed, focused on the mid to large enterprise market. So I kind of came with a bunch of those perspectives. Um, and even at juniper before I was the CMO, I had strategy roles, Um some marketing, you know marketing roles, and then eventually got to the cmocat about six years ago. So Um, yeah, that's uh, that's how I got here. But I think all the while, you know, I are not just thinking about marketing as Oh, this is about branding or, you know, running events or product marketing. But ultimately how what we do impacts the business, Um, how it impacts the strategy of the business, how it impacts the results of the business, is how it can shape product direction, as well as all, you know, being excellent at at the blocking and tackling and marketing. Yeah, just here in your background, it makes sense that this is your version of being a cmo and kind of where, you know where that's morphed into a juniper because you have this vast background to an engineering product, etcetera. Um, so that that makes a lot of sense. And take us back to n C. I think something you said stuck out to me, like learning how to be a winning company. Uh, and certainly it was at scale right this. I'm sure this wasn't a scrappy startup that was just kind of storming a small hill. What what was how do you be a winning company at that scale? What were the what were the cultural traits that you thought allowed them to break up the at and team monopoly and kind of, you know, change the dynamic in a massive market? What are the traits? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean so certainly they had done that break up before I got there. So I got there in there in the I guess mid nine ease and you know, at that time, Um, you know, it was there's probably a few things that I think really stood out to me. One was just a level of aggression and being willing to try new things, to make a dent in the market, to be to stand out, to be noticed, and those things could be, you know, unique and compelling marketing approaches. Um, there were. There were a few that I was involved in that, you know, really stuck with me. But but just like head to head competitive type of approaches. Um, but also the company and May by the time I got there, I don't know how many people it was like thirty thousand people. I Miss, a pretty big company at that time, but still felt very entrepreneurial and you were. You were empowered, even in as a part of such a large company, to just go and like if you were doing something that you know was towards the strategy of the company and was gonna ultimately, you know, help the company win and grow. Um, you were encouraged to do it Um and and and take take those risks. So that's that's really I appreciated and I guess the last thing I'd say is Um at the...

...time it was a simpler time. You had a t and T, you had M C I at the time and you had sprint as well Um and but but you know, there was clarity, there was clarity about your mission. We you know, we were the number two, a t and t was the number one. You knew, you woke up every day knowing who you're you know who you were battling Um and so that level of clarity was, um, I think, compelling and easy to rally people around. You know that's not always the case. I mean certainly we play in a very crowded field and different competitors that do different parts of what we do and all that. So you don't always get that kind of clarity. But but, even if, even if it's a diffuse market, you need to you need to be clear eyed on. Okay, who are the primary competitors? What what is our approach against each of them? What is ultimately winning look like for us, which might be different than what it looks like for somebody else? It's funny because as you went through number one and number two, I'm I'm asking myself, Michael, Cape still needs to be some kind of guiding light, because it can't just be hundreds of entrepreneurs running around doing random stuff. There's got to be and then number three, sure enough, was clarity. So maybe maybe it's it's that simple. I think you're you're right. In today's world, certainly in our space, definitely in your space, it's not so clean cut. It's like, Oh, there are a competitor, but there also our partner and you know, customers are looking for, you know, a conglomeration potentially, of solutions that bring different constituencies together. Um, and maybe that's just the way in most industries, uh, these days, as opposed to the clear, the clear marketplace you're talking about. Well, yeah, and and those those of your listeners that know this time. periody know this this space will know that I kind of glossed over one thing, which is from starting an M C I to getting to verizon, there was something that happened in the middle, which is a company called world calm, Um that bought M C I at the time and then per betrayed the largest accounting fraud in US history. Um, and I lived through that and in fact my role at the time when the company did that and had to declare bankruptcy was I was the director in charge of customer of attention. Imagine, so you're in charge of customer attention for the company that just perpetrated a large accounting fraud and declared bankruptcy. So talk about on the job training and understanding that what's really important to engaging with customers, to keeping them loyal. It's not nothing you're going to read in a Business School Textbook. Um, you just have to live through it. And so that obviously is stuck with me as well. And back to this notion of your really making sure that you're you're driving loyalty engagement, Um, and and supporting your customers extremely well, because that's gonna yield long term benefit. Yeah, and so if you could take us into it a little bit more, because it's for me it's just this thing that happened in the past that I kind of remember, and...

...so maybe just take us one layer deeper into exactly what happened. Like it was it the world com side had acquired you and then this happened over in the world come part of the world or you're gonna get you're getting into the book I'm gonna write someday, probably, but no. So I mean I'll set the scene a little bit because it was kind of interesting. So m CIS, we just talked about, you know, thirty people, Global Company, US focused, but but it had some global operations and stuff. And then world come was a company that had come up just as a reseller, which which essentially meant they didn't own their own network at the time originally, and they would just buy network capacity from the big carriers like M C I and a t and t and then resell it for cheaper and they grew. They grew through acquisition. They were at one point in the late nineties they were the top performing stock of the nineties. So you can imagine there's a lot of excitement about them, and so they used that stock equity to buy a lot of companies and M C I was by far the biggest company that they had purchased. This company was based in Jackson, Mississippi and probably wasn't ready for, not probably wasn't ready for kind of being vaulted into the global stage and running a company at scale. So there are a lot of those stories too about, you know, a well established, well run company and then a much smaller company kind of absorbing at and that created some challenges, um but but also, candidly, there were some opportunities in front of us as a combined company. But I think you know the CEO and the CFO at the time we were both, you know, the World Com CEO and the world com CFO. They were on this growth kick that they got through acquisitions and, like I said, top performing stock of the nineties and when they saw that growth challenged, I'm put trying to put myselves in their heads. You know, they they were challenged and then they did something they shouldn't have done, which is it was not an intricate fraud, but it was a very basic fraud and got caught and and destroyed a lot of people's livelihoods and it was not it was not a fun time. Um, but we but but the thing for me and for the team that I was on, because we were, you know, the M C I part of that was still, you know, kind of within WorldCom, doing a lot of you know, some of the kind of larger enterprise business and, you know, we had some very loyal customers that we had to embrace at the time and we had to stay true to the value that we were providing to them, despite the bad acts of a handful of folks. Um and and frankly, there was a very, I'd say, courageous whistleblower who blew the doors off this whole thing and she actually was part of the internal lot it that came from the world come side. So good for her to do that and to eventually set it right, even though obviously it was a challenging couple of years to get there. It's fascinating into your scheme was customer facing when this it's the front page of the All Street Journal and you got to talk to customers...

...that day and kind of explain to them what's going on and how maybe their business with you would be unaffected, and all of those things. Yes, yeah, you're giving me, you're giving me shivers thinking back to it. But yeah, I mean initially, obviously this caught us all off guard. I mean very few people knew this was going on until it hit and then we're like, oh my God, is this really true? And so, Um, you know, very quickly, Um, you know, a new you know, leadership team was put in place. You know, had to be. And so, I say, very quickly. I don't remember if it was. Probably wasn't days, it was probably weeks. And and so, yeah, you were kind of dancing a little bit and just saying, look, I'm going to do everything I could possibly do to make sure none of your operations are interrupted. You know, we believe that that, you know, even in this challenging time, you know, we're in it for the long haul. I mean we are. You know, we knew that either we would emerge ourselves from bankruptcy or we would get bought. And eventually we emerged and then later we got bought. Um, just you know that that we were part of critical infrastructure for, you know, many government clients. I mean candidly, the US federal government, in my mind, saved saved it because they indicated their commitment because we were would have been almost impossible for them to rip us out over, you know, it would take it forever. So and and brought a lot of risk. So because they said we're with you, that was something that we could then use with other clients and and and just to give some sense of stability as much as we could. Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you for going to but that's an interesting story. Um. Okay, so we spin it back into the seat that you're in today. Um, maybe talk a little bit about what has your engine repped right now, based on anything that might be going on in the industry or anything you're working on, particularly right now a juniper. Yeah, I mean I mentioned that. You know, every day we are focused on growth, UM and driving growth or helping the company drive growth, and I'd say one of the things that's underpinning the current strong momentum that we have is the is the portfolio that we have that is heavily ai driven Um and it is it's really transforming how people think about operating networks and how end users think about the experience that they have on the network. Um, you know. So we're the infrastructure that's I should probably even just take a step back. For those that don't know exactly what business we're in. You know, what I say is if you think about the home router that you have at Your House that probably connects to your cable company or whatever, we do those, but on a larger scale we do those in data centers to power cloud environments. We we build the security software and hardware that helps ensure those networks are secure. So, you know, most of the fortune five hundred, all the big telecom operators around the world, all of the big cloud...

...companies, you know, the Google's and Amazons and microsofts of the world, are all customers of ours. And so that that's what we do. And to think about how you know, as I mentioned, if you're a big telecom operator, you may have hundreds of staff to run the network. If you're not in that industry, the network is certainly important. It's it's it's only grown in importance to will connect your employees, your customers or suppliers, all of that. So people understand it's important. But you know, I t staffs are are are understaffed and our challenge with lots of different things, and so if we can bring in AI capabilities that will find problems before they're even noticed, Um, and fix them in many cases. then. You know, we've got so many stories where I t staffs have taken their network trouble tickets down over. So think about what that unleashes for someone who's already strapped. I don't have to worry about someone complaining the WIFI sucks. It'll just it'll automatically be fixed or if it does, company I'll know exactly what to do. Um. So that radically changes the approach to running a network. And what it does is it makes sure that the end users are having a great experience. So I t becomes the hero Um and has more time and cycles to think about what they'd rather be thinking about, which is what is their role in growing their business, you know, how do they think about digital transformation and drive things forward rather than just being on the day to day treadmill of dealing with user issues and things like that? So that's been an exciting thing that we're able to bring and we really have, you know, true leadership. Um. You know, we're at the top of the top right corner of the Gartner Magic quadrant because they've recognized that we are years ahead of our competitors and bringing ai to the networking space, and that's exciting. Yeah, we talked about implementation earlier and it sounds like there's some overlap of nail implementation. People can spend their time in this proactive way growing business, and it sounds like your products aiming to do the same thing, which is get I t teams out of reactive troubleshooting mode and into into proactive moments. That's yes, and and for a marketer, I mean it's great to have a differentiated product. Any marketer would tell you they'd rather have that than than than not. Um. But the other thing this allows us to do is, in our marketing messaging, focus on outcomes. You know, I don't have to go and tell you the speeds and feeds and the widgets and the knobs of the product. You know, maybe way down, you know, in the final stages of trying to close the deal. That's what our sales teams do or sometimes what marketing does. But really we're able to talk about business outcomes, which makes us not just relevant to the I T director, but relevant to the C I o, relevant to the CFO, maybe even the CEO of WHO's trying to explain to their board how they're going to manage digital transformation on a flat opex budget. So being able to talk outcomes of what our solutions bring and what resources they free up. Um, it's huge. Yeah, and and then to all you know, to get back to the L and G and the scales, enablement, Um, you know,...

...getting I imagine you have a big role in getting your salespeople and the other frontline market facing people to speak in outcomes as well. I know that's it's a challenge for us as a data company because so much of what we do is in the how, how the data goes into workflow, how someone curates a signal, all of those things, when really what we're selling is the outcome and the why a customer would enact these use cases. Um. So maybe talk about how you've Um taken on that challenge from an enablement perspective of getting your market facing resources to focus on the outcomes as well. Yeah, I mean it's certainly has been a change over the last few years of the kind of information we bring to them and how we help them learn how to use it. Um. But but I would say if anything, I mean maybe maybe how they do it in some of the skills needed building or refining, but certainly we didn't have to convince them much that this was the way, that was going to be a more compelling way to engage with, especially prospects who don't know us. I mean if if someone, if you've been working with someone for years and then you're bringing the next solution, they know you, they trust you, Um, and you can. You kind of have that already built. But if someone's like Juniper, why should I even talk to you? I'm working with someone else already. They're fine. Um, why should I even entertain the conversation? You need to start at a at a different level, not at the product level, but at the you know, is this a challenge for you? What if I could eliminate your trouble tickets? What if I could speed the time to market of your new initias, you know, from months to weeks? You know, those kind of things. Are Like, okay, I'm game, I'll take the thirty minute meeting to at least hear you out. And then you start to go through maybe a little more of the how and some examples of where we've done this before, um and and it really plays Um for you guys just to just to jump on that Mike. Obviously we're a customer and partner of yours and we've we've used your technology and that's been a part of how we've transform our sales force into being a more data driven organization, because so much of the value that marketing can bring is around data and surfacing data and then using that to help guide our sales efforts. Um and and you guys are a big part of that. And being able to go to a salesperson and say, you know what, you may be kind of competing blindly in an RFP and not know who you're up against, but actually we might be able to tell you through Pumpora, you know who your potential customer might also be working with or investigating, you know, using some of those use cases, uh, and showing some examples of where sales people used it to their success. I mean sales is, above all, like success breeds success. If I'm a sales guy, I might, I might semi trust or marketing is telling me, but I'll definitely trust what my colleague is telling me that worked for them in a similar opportunity. So, Um, that's been a big part of it. Yeah, and we talk a lot about kind of making these two sales focus use cases distinctive. You've got prioritization, which is just simply who to call and given weak Um, but then a little bit about what you're talking about, which is what to say, or does the business...

...driver or the pain point or the use case, or maybe what you mentioned, which is what is the competitor? And I think if your go to market which is a little unique, the ladder might be even more valuable than the former, because you probably have a finite addressable market. It's big, but it's not, you know, millions of companies. I imagine it's large companies and you know five, six verticals, and so maybe what to say and how to position yourself could be just as available, just as valuable as who to call on a given week. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and it's both. It is both for sure. I mean obviously you know, even if we've got to contact you know, as as you know. You know buying centers are growing, more people are having influence on technology purchases. So we certainly have to help our sales teams know. You know how to how to broaden the UM. You know, the contact base even within an account that they feel like they already know. But but yeah, primarily it is more you know, how do were if they're already in there, they know how to position the portfolio, but how do we give some more intelligence so they're kind of in the driver's seat as much as possible? Well, I know we're kind of over time here and you know, I just want to thank you so much for taking us through your own journey and kind of what is going on in juniper right now. I Know I learned a lot, so I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Yeah, my pleasure is a lot of fun. Well, thanks, Mane. All right. Thank you. Find the businesses who are ready to buy before your competitors do, connect and sell using the industry's most comprehensive and privacy compliant buyer intent data. To learn more, VISIT BAMBARA DOT com. You've been listening to the intent data exchange of Bambara podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show and your favorite podcast player. If you like what you've heard, please rate the show. That helps us keep delivering the latest in the B two B marketing ecosystem. Until next time, it.

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